I don't know about Hmong-Mien, that is difficult to say, but I think yes, there is a "Sino-Tai" family which is indicated in other ways as well.
There are some who make a family of "Tai-Kadai+Hmong-Mien+Sino+Tibetan", and some say that this is outdated. Or are you thinking this as one of "Sino-Xenic" languages?
sáu, kháu, ráw, phalủ, prau, (Khmer uses a base-5 number system), kərao, vs Cryuk? I see little if any resemblance.
I see *phraw, and from the tone we can guess that there are some glots here. It comes to be *phrawʔ
My source: Alves_Vietnamese_Vietic_Monkhmer.pdf of http://www.geocities.com/malves98/publications.html
, page 6 and 11.
You are obviously not very familiar with linguistics. Different languages often use different counting systems. Sakhalin Ainu uses a base 20 system, in the same vein Khmer uses a base-5 system. This doesn't say anything about Khmer having loans from Sino-Tibetan.
But I know that in Korean there are native-20. I also know that there are some languages that has different counting system from Chinese, especially those which have the proper word for '100.000' and '20' (Lao).
I'm not saying that there are no counting system other than 10. Of course they may have different system, they are even very distant to each other and belonging to different family.
I'm only saying that if there were really
proto-Mon-Khmer, it should either have 5-counting system or
10-counting system. If you have 10, then it's impossible for you to have 5 in the same
language. If there are more, it's not from Proto-Mon-Khmer (or can you suggest how it possibly was?)
And Vietnamese 3 are also Miao-Yao. If you relate these, do you assume that they are all
Again, I just don't see the resemblance. And a single, monosyllabic number which seems to resemble another one distantly is easily a chance resemblance, until you get to three or so similar digits which indicates a possible relationship.
Furthermore, a good example is Pou-Ma, which takes Sino-Tibetan 1-10 as their language.
Puyuma uses, iirc, a native counting system. Where are you getting this data?
yeah, if you say that this source may not be true. http://www.zompist.com/asia.htm
3 from Miao-Yao languages:
Hmong mod. orth. peb; Hmong Njua pé; Bunu pe; White Meo pe; Hmong Chuanqiandian pe; Hmong NE Dian pi (?) (this one, the author might 'mix up and reverse' the value of '3' and '5'), Hmong Qiandong pi; Hmong Xiangxi pu; Mien(Yao) puo; Mien mod. orth. buo; Mun po: ; BiaoMin pau; Zaomin puh; Xiaoban po; Banyao pu; She pa; Jiongnai pa
Pa is the closest, Ruc also says "Pa".
It says that: leun song sam si ha hok tiet piet kao sip , closer to Tai than anything else. Maybe when the person was asked "1-10" he replied not in his/her language. If you say that these are not the original numbers of Pouma, then what are they?
A list of numbers that are possibly loans (just find it using Ctrl+F)
10 of Thavung, 4&10 of Amwi, 1-10 of Pou Ma (This can be wrong), 5-10 of Khmu', 7 and 9 of Mal, 10 of Khmer, many of Aslians, 7&8 of some Mundari Languages
Seeing that Mon and Katuic numbers are similar only to its group, and 5-10 are not similar to each other, I may say 5-10 are loans.
If you are careful, you can find some Tibeto-Burman using Indo-European large numbers (>7)
Indo-European sample: "ath" "nan" "das"
Malay: Satu dua tiga empat lima enam tujuh delapan sembilan sepuluh
It consists of a large Cantonese (?) superstratum imposed on a strong Vietnamese substratum resulting in modern "Sino-Vietnamese" language of Vietnam.
I don't know what you are thinking about "Sino-Vietnamese", I only know that there are Sino-Vietnamese vocabulary but I don't think there are "Sino-Vietnamese", "Sino-Japanese" or "Sino-Korean" languages.
That's what "superstratum" means. It indicates that it is foreign, and more recent, but that it constitutes a larger part of the entire vocabulary than the native vocabulary. Notice the "strong" Vietnamese substratum, indicating that it's not like French where the Gaulish substratum is only a few words, but that instead it's strong and has a large presence.
But are those Chinese loanwords very important? If we say the basic words, than it would be few to find.
Code: Select all
iêt8 ñzhi6 sâm2 si6 nguo4 lyuk8 tsˈyet7 pwat7 kyəu4 zhyəp7
*'iêt(D-) *ñzhi(C+) *sâm(A-) *si(C-) *nguo(B+) *lyuk(D+) *tsˈyet(D-) *pwat(D-) *kyəu(C-) *zhyəp(D+)
(These tones have been tested by comparisons with Sino-Viet and Mandarin)
Ping Shang Qu Ru
A B C D
- 1 3 5 7
+ 2 4 6 8
From the tones, it should be:
iêt7 ñzhi6 sâm1 si5 nguo4 lyuk8 tsˈyet7 pwat7 kyəu3 zhyəp8